Your attempt to show that the fact that Moderna recipients had 2x the rate of chronic illness relative to Pfizer recipients was irrelevant to your observation that Moderna death rates are higher than Pfizer death rates failed miserably.
This thread plots the excess deaths and excess chronic illness of Moderna relative to Pfizer across the months of 2021 for various age groups:
1. The excess deaths track closely with the excess chronic illnesses for each age group.
2. For all age groups, they are concentrated in the first 6 months of 2021, which is when only those with chronic illness even had access to vaccines for the <55yr age groups.
It is VERY clear that chronic illness is a major confounder, and in fact along with age appears to explain a huge proportion of the Moderna "excess deaths" relative to Pfizer.
Of course there are likely even more confounders other than age/chronic illness here, but it is clear that your statement that it is "like a cluster randomized trial" between Moderna and Pfizer (implying no confounding and any difference is causal vaccine harm effect) is patently absurd and completely unsupported by these data.
Are you conceding to both Pfizer AND Moderna injections are still KILLING thousands of US citizens with their useless poisonous injections? Or are you just suggesting that Steve's methodology does not prove that Moderna's DEATH SHOT is more lethal than Pfizer's. Doi you agree that both are potentially killers? With NO LIABILITY for makers?
In the 1970's another 'EXPERIMENTAL' injection was found to be dangerous after around 50 (FIFTY) US Service Personnel died after taking a novel Swine Flu injection.
This time around the US VAX RELATED DEATHS are in the THOUSANDS (perhaps 10's of thousands) but somehow, to this day, the jabs are still killing people. How can this continue as they don't even stop Covid or the transmission of Covid?
Unlabbed mick (UK) I'll live longer without invasive and deadly medical interference.
the unvaccinated death rate was much higher than any of the vaccinated groups, MUCH higher than Pfizer which had the lowest death rate of any group, but even higher than Moderna which was as noted above much higher than Pfizer.
So if you want to spin a narrative these are "death shots", these data aren't going to help you one bit -- as they show that not only is there not massive excess deaths after vaccination or in the vaccinated group at any time, but the death rates are much lower in vaccinated than unvaccinated across the board.
BTW, this (vaccinated death rate < unvaccinated) has been seen in all data sets from around the world involving all cause deaths by vaccination status for various age groups and time periods (including UK of course), which is one of many reasons a valid assessment of existing data and studies does not provide any evidence the vaccines are "kill shots" as Steve (and you, apparently) believe.
And where do you get that "vax related deaths are in the 1000s or 10,000s"? I've yet to see any data suggesting that is the case.
The vaccinated are people who tend to go to doctors and live a healthy life apparently, or perhaps they have a regular job and were subject to a mandate; in any case, as Steve writes in his response to this exact argument above, your argument is void due to this demographic artefact. Tedious
The vaccinated and unvaccinated groups are not homogenous, the unvaccinated tend to be less healthy on average as a demographic group. The difference between the two groups diminishes over time, though, which means that the vaccinated are dying at higher rates post vaccination (unless the unvaccinated somehow got healthier).
Actually, the unvaccinated are younger and have less comorbidities on average, so it is not that simple.
But you are absolutely correct that you must account for these and any other confounders when comparing unvaccinated to vaccinated
Which is also true for comparing Moderna and Pfizer -- as shown above Moderna has 2x the comorbidity rate (even within age groups) and is older demographic -- the point Steve summarily ignores/rejects and relies on to make his "Moderna is a kill shot" claim
It was an interesting reveal of the healthy vacinee effect. I did not realize it was this dramatic - I thought it only had effect in the first few weeks.
Might this be true for all medicines? "The healthy statin-taker effect."
Congratulations on getting your debate! I think the vax industry is having "confidence" issues, and I think "booster #10" isn't making things better. Joe Biden getting covid after all his vaxes-and-boosters ... it is just piling on. I don't think this was part of Event 201.
Steve, with respect, I believe Argument #2 Should read 'The 'Unvaccinated' (not VACCINATED') have half the ACM as those 'vaccinated'................
Two other salient points = Everybody just accepted the term 'BOOSTER' as relating to a 'Top-up' of an injected material made by Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AstraZeneca, etc., to support the initial injections (called vaccines?). Were 'BOOSTERS' ever verified as being made of EXACTLY the same composition as the (erroneously) original 'FDA Approved' Experimental injections (inappropriately called 'VACCINES') that were given during the initial (Corrupt) FDA Approval process? If so, why call them 'BOOSTERS'?
If not, what is the difference between the original injected material and the 'BOOSTER'. If they are different in any way, the BOOSTERS should have been subjected to a separate Safety Approval process and given a separate Emergency Licenced Approval. If they are the same, why call them by a different term = 'BOOSTERS'? This seems never to have been queried.
No mRNA jab has been properly Safety checked and these injections will injure, maim and kill much of the world's population. Those who survived the dangerous mRNA shots will, in my opinion, experience a shortened Life Expectancy, but these stats will take decades to become evident, acknowledged and provable. This is just my unqualified opinion.
The other anomaly relates to a previous USA vaccine disaster back in the 1970's. Swine Flu vax was tested on military (Guinea Pigs) and after 50 +/- casualties died, the 'Experiment' was terminated for being "Too DANGEROUS". Why, after millions of Vax DEATHS world-wide, are these depopulating poisons allowed to continue? This is pure insanity driven by mercenary greed of the makers in (CORRUPTED) unison with the FDA. In my opinion it's all about money and backhanders!
Unjabbed Mick. I'll live longer without corrupt medical interference in my health and wellbeing.
Three of the most obvious reasons to support your condemnation of Big Pharma, the ongoing intensification of diseases by 'Gain of Function' (to increase lethality), and the 'Death by Vax' program!
1. If pretend 'vaccines' are supposed to be SAFE and EFFECTIVE, why do the makers hide behind ZERO LOIABILITY?
2. Why do Pfizer refuse to give their EU Government customers an unredacted copy of the CONTRACT!
3. Why do more vaxxed people catch COVID than UNVAXXED?
The list is endless, but there's three questions to answer. When they are answered satisfactorily, perhaps a few of the World's population might begin to trust the mercenary and evil pharmaceutical industry again. I somehow believe they've shot themselves in the foot and it's all over now.
Mick (UK) Unjabbed to live longer without medical intervention.
'They want you to focus on the vaccinated die at half the rate of the unvaccinated, ....'
Not in the UK they don't. From Expose article 'The COVID Divide_ Analyzing England’s Shocking 1 Million Vaccinated Deaths compared to just 61k Unvaccinated Deaths – The Expose.pdf'
That's the absolute number of deaths and not the rate of deaths, which would be deaths divided by population size.
In the ONS dataset for mortality by vaccination status, unvaccinated people have a higher age-standardized mortality rate than vaccinated people (even though it's probably partially or even mostly because of the healthy vaccinee effect, like in the case of the new Czech data). The crude mortality rate is higher for vaccinated people than unvaccinated people, but that's because vaccinated people are much older on average:
Brilliant. Fanfreakintastic as always Steve. Unfortunately i think the world has moved on from caring (if it ever did). Maybe due to the election cycle?
I do agree that it was my fault that we were railroaded into getting vaccinated at all! I am one of the truly ignorant herd animals & accept my own ignorance!
Why did Moderna NOT do any damage to me or my husband, but Pfizer killed him & is killing me, just more slowly! It destroyed my muscles & immunities, & his as well!
For an isolated pair of cases, it could be a simple matter of bad batch of Pfizer vaccines. The adverse effects seem to cluster by batches from the manufacturer, but no official agency wants to gather that info and publicize it.
These nay-sayers are uniformly sociopathic narcissists who have no interest in any narrative other that the one they have created or accepted within their own minds. They are also incredibly arrogant and close-minded. They are not only unwilling, but unable to consider opinions outside of their own echo chambers. It is a sad state of affairs and marks our age of empire collapse. Just wait until the bird flu vaxxx are trotted out and pushed by these same geniuses - it is coming and fast.
I appreciate that you took the criticisms seriously and addressed them. This is how real scientific exploration is achieved. It’s too bad the pro-injection side won’t do the same but it’s understandable as there isn’t any good justification to favor these injections.
All cause mortality includes traumatic deaths, self inflicted death are you seriously suggesting that the vaccines are responsible? You have failed to take into account other confounders such as delays in getting diagnoses, monitoring and treatment for chronic diseases.
You have decided that the COVID19 vaccines are responsible and have created confirmation bias.
These ideas have been addressed by quite a few people. If delays in diagnosis, monitoring, and treatment were to blame for the sharp rise in ACM mortality, it wouldn’t happen in the young or middle-aged the way that it did as the young and middle-age are not in danger of dying within days or months from chronic diseases that go undiagnosed. And even if they did die from these things, it would have showed up before the roll out of the mRNA and it would have showed up more in the older age groups. And it would have been a very small rise because chronic disease is not a major cause of death for young and middle-aged people.
Also, regardless of that insignificant reality, if delays in diagnosis, monitoring, and treatments did cause a massive rise in ACM, (coincidentally at the same time the injection mandates were rolled out) wouldn’t public health officials be responsible for reckless health policies that were more harmful than the disease? Yet no one who thinks the injections were safe and effective is calling for the people responsible for the lockdowns, (which again, theoretically caused excess ACM) to be held responsible for such death and destruction. To me, this is evidence that the horrible policies such as lockdowns and emptying the hospitals did cause harm, but not enough to pin the blame on the public health agencies for this specific reason and to explain away the ACM rise in late 2021.
Something caused high rates of ACM in young people and no one defending the mRNA jabs has a suitable explanation, nor are they even looking for it. If public health agencies cared, or if they weren’t guilty of playing a roll in it, they would try to figure it out. It’s their ONE job. It’s a big deal to have young people dying at massively higher than normal rates, during a “pandemic” from a virus that really only was a significant danger to the elderly and people with high numbers of co-morbidities. That results in massively higher loss of life years.
And no on us saying that the public health policies were not harmful. They clearly were, which is partially why there is a massive drop in trust of public health officials. Suicide increased, drug dependency increased. But I don’t think accidents did. But even with those increases, it is not enough to explain things like rises in heart related deaths in all age groups.
Even if your theory was completely correct, it means the public health agencies and the current medical system caused massive unnecessary deaths in young people. And oddly, no one who thinks this is the case is calling for accountability. At least I haven’t seen it. It’s like an excuse that seems less ominous (incompetence) than the fact that they pushed something lethal on the public, and that incompetence somehow makes it okay, or not that bad, or understandable, or just bad luck or something?
Either scenario is very, very bad. The response to the “pandemic” was a complete disaster and the biggest problem is that no one is being held accountable to prevent it happening again, and no one from public health agencies is explaining, which transparency of the data, whether it was incompetence or malfeasance or whatever.
And new mRNA injections for things like RSV continue to be rolled out to the public with out proper testing because they are being rolled out under EUA laws, just like the Covid injections. If people don’t demand data transparency and if we don’t demand accountability, for whatever happened, we are essentially allowing it to happen again.
Also, if your theory of why the ACM went up is correct, it should have normalized after lockdowns ended. It didn’t. The ACM is still above average but it’s going to be the normal soon.
It too bad they ended the double blind placebo after 2 months. We could have known what was going to happen long term had they studied it like they originally planned the study. Although even then, in the few weeks that they had the trial running, it showed a higher ACM in the injection group. But that’s probably just a coincidence that it also happened with the world wide roll out.
Steve, In your Argument #2 Should the first 'vaccinated' read 'Unvaccinated' instead of 'vaccinated'?
Unjabbed Mick (UK)
Your attempt to show that the fact that Moderna recipients had 2x the rate of chronic illness relative to Pfizer recipients was irrelevant to your observation that Moderna death rates are higher than Pfizer death rates failed miserably.
This thread plots the excess deaths and excess chronic illness of Moderna relative to Pfizer across the months of 2021 for various age groups:
https://x.com/jsm2334/status/1815411926211383738
These clearly show that:
1. The excess deaths track closely with the excess chronic illnesses for each age group.
2. For all age groups, they are concentrated in the first 6 months of 2021, which is when only those with chronic illness even had access to vaccines for the <55yr age groups.
It is VERY clear that chronic illness is a major confounder, and in fact along with age appears to explain a huge proportion of the Moderna "excess deaths" relative to Pfizer.
Of course there are likely even more confounders other than age/chronic illness here, but it is clear that your statement that it is "like a cluster randomized trial" between Moderna and Pfizer (implying no confounding and any difference is causal vaccine harm effect) is patently absurd and completely unsupported by these data.
Morris or Jeffrey.
Are you conceding to both Pfizer AND Moderna injections are still KILLING thousands of US citizens with their useless poisonous injections? Or are you just suggesting that Steve's methodology does not prove that Moderna's DEATH SHOT is more lethal than Pfizer's. Doi you agree that both are potentially killers? With NO LIABILITY for makers?
In the 1970's another 'EXPERIMENTAL' injection was found to be dangerous after around 50 (FIFTY) US Service Personnel died after taking a novel Swine Flu injection.
This time around the US VAX RELATED DEATHS are in the THOUSANDS (perhaps 10's of thousands) but somehow, to this day, the jabs are still killing people. How can this continue as they don't even stop Covid or the transmission of Covid?
Unlabbed mick (UK) I'll live longer without invasive and deadly medical interference.
No.
As I showed in the first tweet of this thread (https://x.com/jsm2334/status/1813584535763763574),
the unvaccinated death rate was much higher than any of the vaccinated groups, MUCH higher than Pfizer which had the lowest death rate of any group, but even higher than Moderna which was as noted above much higher than Pfizer.
So if you want to spin a narrative these are "death shots", these data aren't going to help you one bit -- as they show that not only is there not massive excess deaths after vaccination or in the vaccinated group at any time, but the death rates are much lower in vaccinated than unvaccinated across the board.
BTW, this (vaccinated death rate < unvaccinated) has been seen in all data sets from around the world involving all cause deaths by vaccination status for various age groups and time periods (including UK of course), which is one of many reasons a valid assessment of existing data and studies does not provide any evidence the vaccines are "kill shots" as Steve (and you, apparently) believe.
And where do you get that "vax related deaths are in the 1000s or 10,000s"? I've yet to see any data suggesting that is the case.
The vaccinated are people who tend to go to doctors and live a healthy life apparently, or perhaps they have a regular job and were subject to a mandate; in any case, as Steve writes in his response to this exact argument above, your argument is void due to this demographic artefact. Tedious
Whatever it is, the vaccinated people die at far lower rate than unvaccinated across the board.
So how can the vaccines be "kill shots"?
The vaccinated and unvaccinated groups are not homogenous, the unvaccinated tend to be less healthy on average as a demographic group. The difference between the two groups diminishes over time, though, which means that the vaccinated are dying at higher rates post vaccination (unless the unvaccinated somehow got healthier).
Actually, the unvaccinated are younger and have less comorbidities on average, so it is not that simple.
But you are absolutely correct that you must account for these and any other confounders when comparing unvaccinated to vaccinated
Which is also true for comparing Moderna and Pfizer -- as shown above Moderna has 2x the comorbidity rate (even within age groups) and is older demographic -- the point Steve summarily ignores/rejects and relies on to make his "Moderna is a kill shot" claim
It was an interesting reveal of the healthy vacinee effect. I did not realize it was this dramatic - I thought it only had effect in the first few weeks.
Might this be true for all medicines? "The healthy statin-taker effect."
Congratulations on getting your debate! I think the vax industry is having "confidence" issues, and I think "booster #10" isn't making things better. Joe Biden getting covid after all his vaxes-and-boosters ... it is just piling on. I don't think this was part of Event 201.
Steve, with respect, I believe Argument #2 Should read 'The 'Unvaccinated' (not VACCINATED') have half the ACM as those 'vaccinated'................
Two other salient points = Everybody just accepted the term 'BOOSTER' as relating to a 'Top-up' of an injected material made by Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AstraZeneca, etc., to support the initial injections (called vaccines?). Were 'BOOSTERS' ever verified as being made of EXACTLY the same composition as the (erroneously) original 'FDA Approved' Experimental injections (inappropriately called 'VACCINES') that were given during the initial (Corrupt) FDA Approval process? If so, why call them 'BOOSTERS'?
If not, what is the difference between the original injected material and the 'BOOSTER'. If they are different in any way, the BOOSTERS should have been subjected to a separate Safety Approval process and given a separate Emergency Licenced Approval. If they are the same, why call them by a different term = 'BOOSTERS'? This seems never to have been queried.
No mRNA jab has been properly Safety checked and these injections will injure, maim and kill much of the world's population. Those who survived the dangerous mRNA shots will, in my opinion, experience a shortened Life Expectancy, but these stats will take decades to become evident, acknowledged and provable. This is just my unqualified opinion.
The other anomaly relates to a previous USA vaccine disaster back in the 1970's. Swine Flu vax was tested on military (Guinea Pigs) and after 50 +/- casualties died, the 'Experiment' was terminated for being "Too DANGEROUS". Why, after millions of Vax DEATHS world-wide, are these depopulating poisons allowed to continue? This is pure insanity driven by mercenary greed of the makers in (CORRUPTED) unison with the FDA. In my opinion it's all about money and backhanders!
Unjabbed Mick. I'll live longer without corrupt medical interference in my health and wellbeing.
Much appreciation for your work Mr Kirsch
Our health representatives should be releasing the data to us They’re not for a reason
Thanks for doing your best to expose what we should’ve already been told
💕
Three of the most obvious reasons to support your condemnation of Big Pharma, the ongoing intensification of diseases by 'Gain of Function' (to increase lethality), and the 'Death by Vax' program!
1. If pretend 'vaccines' are supposed to be SAFE and EFFECTIVE, why do the makers hide behind ZERO LOIABILITY?
2. Why do Pfizer refuse to give their EU Government customers an unredacted copy of the CONTRACT!
3. Why do more vaxxed people catch COVID than UNVAXXED?
The list is endless, but there's three questions to answer. When they are answered satisfactorily, perhaps a few of the World's population might begin to trust the mercenary and evil pharmaceutical industry again. I somehow believe they've shot themselves in the foot and it's all over now.
Mick (UK) Unjabbed to live longer without medical intervention.
I thought you once avoided using the term “killshots”? LOL. Keep it up.
'They want you to focus on the vaccinated die at half the rate of the unvaccinated, ....'
Not in the UK they don't. From Expose article 'The COVID Divide_ Analyzing England’s Shocking 1 Million Vaccinated Deaths compared to just 61k Unvaccinated Deaths – The Expose.pdf'
https://expose-news.com/2024/02/15/analyzing-englands-shocking-c19-vaccine-deaths/
That's the absolute number of deaths and not the rate of deaths, which would be deaths divided by population size.
In the ONS dataset for mortality by vaccination status, unvaccinated people have a higher age-standardized mortality rate than vaccinated people (even though it's probably partially or even mostly because of the healthy vaccinee effect, like in the case of the new Czech data). The crude mortality rate is higher for vaccinated people than unvaccinated people, but that's because vaccinated people are much older on average:
t=fread("http://sars2.net/f/ons-table-2-2023-august.csv",na.strings="<3")
t[cause=="All causes",.(sum(dead,na.rm=T)/sum(pop)*1e5),status]
Brilliant. Fanfreakintastic as always Steve. Unfortunately i think the world has moved on from caring (if it ever did). Maybe due to the election cycle?
we'll see
I do agree that it was my fault that we were railroaded into getting vaccinated at all! I am one of the truly ignorant herd animals & accept my own ignorance!
Why did Moderna NOT do any damage to me or my husband, but Pfizer killed him & is killing me, just more slowly! It destroyed my muscles & immunities, & his as well!
it's called a 20% higher mortality rate and probability.
You can flip a coin 3 times and get heads all three times... 1 chance in 8 .
For an isolated pair of cases, it could be a simple matter of bad batch of Pfizer vaccines. The adverse effects seem to cluster by batches from the manufacturer, but no official agency wants to gather that info and publicize it.
no evidence of that
Has the data been gathered and published on batches vs. adverse effects?
Here's another analysis by the Daily Beagle:
https://thedailybeagle.substack.com/p/deep-dive-of-the-deaths-dataset
Seems that way
DAMN THEM!!! They ended our lives & I am in agonies on every level💔
These nay-sayers are uniformly sociopathic narcissists who have no interest in any narrative other that the one they have created or accepted within their own minds. They are also incredibly arrogant and close-minded. They are not only unwilling, but unable to consider opinions outside of their own echo chambers. It is a sad state of affairs and marks our age of empire collapse. Just wait until the bird flu vaxxx are trotted out and pushed by these same geniuses - it is coming and fast.
I really like this quote I came across a few years ago. It seems to put these ridiculous arguments into perspective.
TRUTH
does not mind being questioned
A LIE
does not like
being challenged
It really is as simple as that. !!!
i used that early on in many presentations.
And ACM only considers deaths, not serious injuries. And we don't know how this will unfold in the long term.
correct.
I appreciate that you took the criticisms seriously and addressed them. This is how real scientific exploration is achieved. It’s too bad the pro-injection side won’t do the same but it’s understandable as there isn’t any good justification to favor these injections.
I painstakingly respond and they mostly ignore whatever I write.
All cause mortality includes traumatic deaths, self inflicted death are you seriously suggesting that the vaccines are responsible? You have failed to take into account other confounders such as delays in getting diagnoses, monitoring and treatment for chronic diseases.
You have decided that the COVID19 vaccines are responsible and have created confirmation bias.
how much time did you spend analyzing the data john?
Can I see your github repo with your code and analysis?
Over a large group of people, why would there be a significant difference in traumatic deaths, suicides, etc.?
These ideas have been addressed by quite a few people. If delays in diagnosis, monitoring, and treatment were to blame for the sharp rise in ACM mortality, it wouldn’t happen in the young or middle-aged the way that it did as the young and middle-age are not in danger of dying within days or months from chronic diseases that go undiagnosed. And even if they did die from these things, it would have showed up before the roll out of the mRNA and it would have showed up more in the older age groups. And it would have been a very small rise because chronic disease is not a major cause of death for young and middle-aged people.
Also, regardless of that insignificant reality, if delays in diagnosis, monitoring, and treatments did cause a massive rise in ACM, (coincidentally at the same time the injection mandates were rolled out) wouldn’t public health officials be responsible for reckless health policies that were more harmful than the disease? Yet no one who thinks the injections were safe and effective is calling for the people responsible for the lockdowns, (which again, theoretically caused excess ACM) to be held responsible for such death and destruction. To me, this is evidence that the horrible policies such as lockdowns and emptying the hospitals did cause harm, but not enough to pin the blame on the public health agencies for this specific reason and to explain away the ACM rise in late 2021.
Something caused high rates of ACM in young people and no one defending the mRNA jabs has a suitable explanation, nor are they even looking for it. If public health agencies cared, or if they weren’t guilty of playing a roll in it, they would try to figure it out. It’s their ONE job. It’s a big deal to have young people dying at massively higher than normal rates, during a “pandemic” from a virus that really only was a significant danger to the elderly and people with high numbers of co-morbidities. That results in massively higher loss of life years.
And no on us saying that the public health policies were not harmful. They clearly were, which is partially why there is a massive drop in trust of public health officials. Suicide increased, drug dependency increased. But I don’t think accidents did. But even with those increases, it is not enough to explain things like rises in heart related deaths in all age groups.
Even if your theory was completely correct, it means the public health agencies and the current medical system caused massive unnecessary deaths in young people. And oddly, no one who thinks this is the case is calling for accountability. At least I haven’t seen it. It’s like an excuse that seems less ominous (incompetence) than the fact that they pushed something lethal on the public, and that incompetence somehow makes it okay, or not that bad, or understandable, or just bad luck or something?
Either scenario is very, very bad. The response to the “pandemic” was a complete disaster and the biggest problem is that no one is being held accountable to prevent it happening again, and no one from public health agencies is explaining, which transparency of the data, whether it was incompetence or malfeasance or whatever.
And new mRNA injections for things like RSV continue to be rolled out to the public with out proper testing because they are being rolled out under EUA laws, just like the Covid injections. If people don’t demand data transparency and if we don’t demand accountability, for whatever happened, we are essentially allowing it to happen again.
Also, if your theory of why the ACM went up is correct, it should have normalized after lockdowns ended. It didn’t. The ACM is still above average but it’s going to be the normal soon.
It too bad they ended the double blind placebo after 2 months. We could have known what was going to happen long term had they studied it like they originally planned the study. Although even then, in the few weeks that they had the trial running, it showed a higher ACM in the injection group. But that’s probably just a coincidence that it also happened with the world wide roll out.