If you want to change my mind, it's simple. There has been a lot of evidence gathered over the past 100 years that viruses exist. Simply show me that the things we know about a virus are more consistent with the hypothesis A that viruses do not exist than the hypothesis B that they exist.

Or simply show that my 4 observations (golf partner, wife, me, brother) are more likely explained by A than B.

Basically show me that the preponderance of the evidence favors A.

Please explain why nobody has done that.

Or even easier, tell me if I am asked if there is a needle in a haystack and I do 1,000 measurement all consistent with a needle being in the haystack, but I cannot actually find the needle, is there a needle? Or does it not exist because I cannot physically find (aka isolate) it?

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Your 'needle in a haystack' argument is backwards. First, it isn't us who have hidden the needle; it isn't us who claims that there is a needle in the haystack — it is the virus proponents. It's YOU who is making and affirming the claim!

Secondly, according to the claims of the virus proponents there isn't one needle in the haystack... It is claimed that "the total number of virions in an infected person during peak infection is 10⁹ to 10¹¹ RNA copies" (https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2024815118)... That's between 1 billion and 100 billion needles in the haystack. That should make it a little easier to find some.

You can use whatever technology you like in order to detect and hone in those needles... But ultimately you must provide the needle. Not a closeup picture of the needle. Not a bunch of computer generated sequences that you put together and then say corresponds to the needle... Show us some physical needles, AND THEN show us that the needles cause disease.

YOU claim that viruses exist. YOU must prove the claim.

Also, why have you simply passed over the bacteriophage issue brought up by Mr. Gunnel? Show us that pathogenic viruses exist in the same manner and to the same level that bacteriophages (whether they are actually classified as 'viruses' or not) have been shown to exist: PHYSICALLY isolated and purified. Since they are roughly the same size, it ought to be easy wouldn't you say?

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Mar 27, 2023·edited Mar 27, 2023

As we approach, on one end, people doing quantum virology, and, on the other end, people denying their existance, we have perhaps reached some (quantum mechanical) entangled world where at the same time, viruses exist and do not exist, depending on the observational setup. ;)))

I have found that the people denying viruses do conclude the more humane "interventions" whereas the virus defenders tend to "measures". Just in tendency. What you work with seems to form your reality.

Still, when I observe illnesses that swept through our house, I rather hold it with

A) if it quacks and walks and looks like a duck, maybe it is.

(meaning: it is a mental model that let's me deduce new insights, and if tools would be used humanistically, and not in Level-4 labs for sinister military or wag-the-dog purposes, we could have a nice live on earth...

B) Pasteur and Bernard told us: the milieu is all. The human experimentator Robert Koch told us the pathogen is all. Both were wrong, but I think 95% Paseur and Bernard were right.

(So Robert Koch is only a 95% villain. For his experiments on humans and his greed for recognition, mainly, of course ;))

As for A): the model of viruses brought me to the thesis that you can do a vaccine in 30 seconds.

Infected person X blows snot in bowl. Sterilize, filtrate, and do in nasal spray.

Take 5x/day, 1 Week, and measure mucosal immunity before and after. Applicable to elderly people's homes missing to train their immune system by breathing air in gatherings.

Do this in a whole city and observe if a virus is suddenly tamed into coexisting mode by up-selecting more mild variants. Help it by Xylitol spray and C):

Up-selecting more mild variants is PROHIBITED by ALL measures. Masks, vaccines, Fear Porn, CDC un-hygiene rules (1,5m, elbow, hands (1/1000ths of infections). I set up better ones:


- use VIRTUAL MASKS (antiviral nasal sprays) in need (protect vulnerables) that slowly make them less vulnerable, like xylitol (prebiotic, improves biome, reduces vulnerability; inorganic antiseptics (detox together with eg healing earth or ceolite)).

- C1): if SEVERE symptoms: call all contacts and cry STOP: don't spread, do PEP:

"post exposition prophylaxis", by doing I-PREVENT or I-CARE or at least doing what granny told when symptoms would be active of incident case

- C2) if MILD symptoms, give it a chance; ask your contacts: would you mind to get a cold? AND protect vulnerables (in doubt both using virtual masks AND avoiding droplet production in 3m 40sec radius, so go OUT for {NOSE BLOWING, cough, sneeze}, in need, cover under pullover by dragging the neck collar over your nose line and pressing it there by one hand, rafting it around waist, let drops settle, crouch out agian, "sorry", to catch DROPLETS, where 1 is infectious, which is why masks don't work, just reduce initial dose. Each mask has a part of the face contact line only pressed on lightly, so fleece is transmissive to droplets even. (The pullover works if good cotton, no holes, at least in family it prevented too many becoming too severly ill at once since 14 years now; Elbow is straight dumb as >70% droplets get reflected and still shoot 3m, AND no cotton there in summer, >90% reflected; as we work on habit, we have to train life long to be mindful ;)

C1 + C2 = UP-SELCTION in ?1-3months?

ONLY C1+C2 UP-SELECT mild variants in NO TIME, as ALL variants exist in parallel in waves, the fairy-tale of "long and winding road to endemy" is blewn away, measures make it long and winding; and their measurable dominant presence is only a reflection of our current BEHAVIOUR and our current IMMUNITY, which we can change in NO TIME, both. Spraying on iota carrageenan, xylitol with GSE or CIO2 or HClO is a short-lived immunity, or for the aviral community, DETOX.

Spring Cures modulate your immunity, even long-term if healing epigenetics, so also inheritable!

Curing the epigentics is the real cure against trauma like vaccination and will restore proper immune response. Help finding plant based interventions BACK-PROGRAMMING the epigenetic setup, un-doing the REPROGRAMMING of the PEG2k "medical device".

Many old healing systems could do this. I see no physician crying hello, I found the "UNDO" of the PEG2k REPROGAMMING of your epigenetic setup you inherited 3-6 generations along, sorry for messing with it by the way as I gave you the last shot.

And finding plants that free biome from mRNA producing plasmides, as were found 30% in vaccine vials, not 0.3% as max (should set 0% as goal for good manufacturing procedures!).

By the way, ALL remedies working against CoV diminish the problem of viral residues like EBV and relatives, and Lyme, and overshooting immunity due to mold (major trigger of mast cell activation, but I fear of MAS and AI as well). So I-RECOVER is a good apporach for all these modern symptoms.

So this debate may well have the end:

IT DOESN'T MATTER what you believe.

It matters that you listen to your heart and help people to get well or not ill in the first place.

And yes, I heared the spanish flu began 1km in front of fort knox and breed about it.

And yes, I heard the last Ebola problem also had an episode half way from some lab in US.

And yes, I was told the "vaccine" for ebola was done in ring vaccination, so people suffered from cytokine storm doubled by vaccine AND incubation, and so prematurely went ill, 4-7 days incubation instead of >10, but were not counted, so 100% vaccine "efficacy"...

Back to CoV:

And yes, my doughter had no illness, did a CoV test, went to PFi Vax, and 3 days later had CoV. So Vax depresses immune system, and incubation or viral residues become a problem, in the picture of no viruses: you inject a poison, and junk can replicate. And yes, our family split over the dicussion if the girls had to be vaccinated, the moloch won and did a check on this topic for us.

And yes, she could infect 4 others the day before symtoms, so yes, PRE-symtomatically is possible, but ONE day before infectiousness, her aerosol count when exhaling softly in a pm2.5 air qualtiy sensor rose by FACTOR 7 from base value the days before. So mucosal integrity can be non-specifically measured and interventions given at the right time. And vulnerable protected, for 25$ re-useable indefinetly for ANY malaise on mucosa, also tells me if I ate something I'm snesitive to. Nice for avoidance cure to calm down immune system, as it tells you 2 days before symptoms for IgG-based delayed "allergies".

Sci-fi part:

I once found a cool description of what viruses are more referring to extended parts or particles of life itself, inventing it a-new, transporting inventions across species borders, rising above us especially when we gather in a crowd, and communicating, exchanging, flipping between states, tunneling, whatever, so in one person, not all species of the zoo are present, only 8-10, but above a crowd, it get's complete, and vibrates as a quantum mechanistic swarm, massively parallel, distributed, quasi-beiing trying to hack our immune systems AND behaviour, also directly possible (see rabies). Perhaps all viruses in all beings that are similar communicate in some way globally. Perhaps the spike that is so identical due to vaccination is the single most powerful channel for this communication solely between humans and some zoo animals.

Perhaps it is in our reach to shape the swarm, tame it, play for us, if WE behave on this planet, and respect the vastness of the swarm, engulfing all Gaia! I think older civilisations were much further advanced in that respect without the concept of viruses. But doing the right things.

Of course, when you input bad things, like the prion snipped in wuhan spike, then bad things happen and people start to show neurodegenerative diseases.

Interestingly, the swarm itself expelled the prion really soon after wuhan. <

(Did it also expell the 4 AIDS snippets "randomnly" inserted in the spike, but converging in 3D model JUST next to the cleavage site, so very funcional? Of course, just accidentally they bend together as one...)

So this explains the need for the "dual booster", instead of "current strain only" booster, including the remainder for us of the bovine madness prion AND pretend to do something against the current strains, as to the last dumb vaxxing physician it began to deem strange why in the world wuhan spike should do some good.

"Pretend", as the swarm INSTANTLY dodges ANY vaccine and new ADE-I then 3 rounds later ADE-D variants are circulating.

NO humane, hippocratic, humanistic vaccine for rapidly mutanting pathogens can be based upon deep infection / transfection provoking b-cell based antibodies. PERIOD.

Please, WHICH vaccine project solely relies upon mucosal TRAINING (of innate antibodies, mainly), and does not ENTER the body through the mucosa, which many nasal / inhalative vaccines do?

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Mika, SO, WHERE IS YOUR ANALYSIS OF 1) THE POSTULATES OF VIROLOGY and 2) THE EVIDENCE CITED BY VIROLOGISTS IN SUPPORT OF THESE POSTULATES. THAT is where to start the discussion, since I can assure you, that these scientists in sophisticated labs equipped withvarious analytical devices have a SIGNIFICANT body of evidence. WHERE IS IT ? DID YOU LOOK ? Once you provide it, wecan analyze it. Until then, you will fail the course cause you just didn't do your homework.

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The structure if Zika Virus was determined by Cryo-Electron Microscopy


More strong evidence fo viruses. The complexity of the structure makes it so much more convincing.

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Tomatoe Bushy Stunt Virus - the first virus structure determined by X-Ray crystallography (1976).

Poliovirus and rhinovirus (1986).

Many X-ray crystal structures of viruses to 2 angstrom resolution resolves the specific amino acid chains and all the (larger) atoms in the side chains.

(Sorry, virus deniers, we can not Cancel hard science. Real data. Strong proof. If you folks want to destroy our society and massive knowledge base, please think twice).

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Steve, How would some information on X-Ray crystal structures on crystals of various viruses do for evidence? X-ray crystal analysis is a hard science technique used with many smaller molecules for many years.


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We tend to have a limitation on what we know and what we can verify. Thanks for being willing to talk with others, I’ve only come across Patrick because of Patel Patriot deep diving Devolution. Thanks for including Judy’s take, I like her a lot. There will be a tremendous work ahead to re-do much science that has since been deemed compromised. Can’t wait for the elementary science fairs to prove reality.

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The key is, these folks make the same 5-10 points of partial information, but have NEVER listed the claims or points that a standard Virusibelieving virologist uses as the basis for viral theory, as I will call it. As you state, they should start at the beginning of published research in virology and at least review the major papers, such as papers contained in review articles. A dishonest effort = a dishonest approach = darkness and not light. Those who do not seek the truth as hid gold, obtain the fruit of their laziness = darkness, blindness and ignorance. They get Exactly what they deserve. Shake the dust off your feet, but at the same time, reach out to deceived sheep when you encounter them. There are operatives at many levels. Those aware of the deception they spread, those paid, and many duped at various levels. Buyer beware. Buy the Truth and sell it not. I have rwached out to many. But many have their minds already shreaded by the psycho operations. They are currently quite lobotomized.

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Steve, My approach to folks who promote or appear to believe the No Virus mantra, is to simply deal with evidence and logic. I fully accept that any postulate might be correct, but that probably (??) Only one is correct, or more accurately, will be found consistent with all the available confirmed data. This is the meaasge of "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" which I alerted all to in March or April 2020. I further expressed that Keptner-Tregoe Problem Analysis methodoligy should be used to avoid jumping to conclusions. But I wonder if anyone "heard" what I said by obeying those key rules. An existing paradigm is accepted in science, but is supplanted when 1. An anomaly is found which does not fit this paradigm and 2. A new paradigm is proposed which includes all confirmed observations.

The problem is, the level of many of the folks I have been talking to is such that strict logic and reading comprehension is missing ! Here is an example. In late Aug 2020, an article "went viral" titled "Did the CDC Reduce their Covid-19 Death Count by 94%" (or a very similar title). The mere suggestion in this article was that with the Release of Table 3 of Comorbidities, the CDC may have reduced their CV-19 death counts. People immediately JUMPED to a ludicrous conclusion. To me, this was an obvious cognitive psychological operation. These folks must have never read Table 3. No where in this table did the CDC state they reduced the death counts (until this year, they reduced it by about 72k, as I recall, in a totally separate release). Well, my brilliant ass-ociates didn't turn on their minds...or what ? People are not carefully thinking, are shocked into disbelief of everything and easy believism based on unverified snippets. I am in disbelief at the level of degradation of cognition. Or is it just that the average mind is so below average and I have associated too long with the top few percent in intelligence ? Both, I suspect. James Corbett describes the relevance of The Structure of Sci Revolutions (Kuhn, or & Popper version) in his "Science Says" episode. Can we get just a few folks to screw their heads on straight ? I have to keep checking if mine is attached in the age of mis mass information.

Please see Rense & Erica Khan's comments on Robert Young (alleging Sci Fraud in a publication submission using other's credentials) via Kevin McKarin's (sp) investigation and the Malone "threat" to Peter Breggin.

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Steve, I would prefer to e-mail you. The discussion with Gunnels is laborious and begins with expressions on your face which indicate that you find his position apriori highly questionable. Gunnels' body language begins or soon morphs into defensive postures. He also shifts in his seat often, which is a characteristic Tom Cowan exhibits in some or most of his videos. This shifting appears to me to show a lack of confidence.

Regardless of the ineffectively laborious nature of your questioning, I find your research showing difficulty in Poormina's claimed PhDs is stunning, seeing the widespread distribution of this, and the easy acceptance of One lady claiming observations, while the scientific standard is reproducibility. If we had 10 people claiming the same data, it would strictly be hearsay to us. I can not confirm results if I do not do the measurements or experiments. Traditionally, there has been a network of scientists who have established trust relationships, so their results are believed by close associates in the field. I see that the ease of information distribution today gives 1. The village idiot a platform and 2. Tends to equally weight qualifed, unqualified and total liars. This situation creates a severe problem for the multiple non-realities or Virtual realities thus created. We have a problem here ! Beam me up, Scotty.

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It's debatable what phages are: https://www.livescience.com/largest-bacteriophage-discovered.html

These phages are "hybrids between what we think of as traditional viruses and traditional living organisms," such as bacteria and archaea, senior author Jill Banfield, a University of California, Berkeley, professor of Earth and planetary science and of environmental science, policy and management, said in the statement. This huge phages' genome is much larger than the genomes of many bacteria, according to the statement.

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"Show me the data" says Steve - indeed.

Show the data which demonstrates a virus isolated, purified, and then shown to be able to infect people.

It isn't there, no matter where you look.

The methodologies used to "isolate the virus" are known to kill cells ( antibiotics etc ) and so you are not looking at a natural environment, but one which has been poisoned - not by a "virus" but by the so called isolation techniques.

The strong likelihood is that the "viruses" seen on microscopy are simply internal cellular components trying to get out; not infectious "viruses" trying to get in.

The whole idea of infectivity is fake, as Pasteur eventually acknowledged - but the paradigm can be exploited for profit, and so it is maintained and defended, against all the evidence.

Just as an analogy, the supposed virus causing "Spanish Flu" was never isolated, nor could any of the secretions of the sick ever be used to infect the healthy.

This is itself strongly indicates that the paradigm is hopelessly wrong - but lucrative, hence irs continuation.

I guarantee that BG would not have invested so heavily in quackzines if he were not able to make massive profits from so doing.

Kirsch was not convinced by antivirus opinions, but his mind is set, as many minds are also set on other demonstrable falsehoods, such as the "holohoax" which he also believes in and promotes.

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Jul 28, 2022·edited Jul 28, 2022

Steve, I don't think you were fair in your critique of Patrick. The person who makes the claim bears the burden of proof, not the person unconvinced by the claim. Even if a majority of scientists believe viruses exist, that's not proof it actually does exist. Patrick stated that unless you provide sufficient evidence to back up the claim that viruses exist, you have failed to demonstrate that viruses exist and therefore cannot just conclude they do by default. They may exist or they may not, but if one cannot show they do, one cannot assume they do regardless of whether an alternative explanation can be given. An unproven claim does not become true just because an alternate claim isn't provided in its place. That is why Patrick did not provide one. You claimed giving a good alternate explanation would go a long way to convince you viruses don't exist. Perhaps it would. But the topic was not what is needed to convince Steve Kirsch to believe that viruses don't exist. Nor was it what alternative explanation is most likely to be true. Nor was it why have so many virologists believed viruses exist for so many decades if they actually don't exist. The topic was is it true that viruses do exist? If one claims they do, that person bears the burden of proof. You couldn't do that and you can't just presuppose it. Frankly you looked very silly and were quite demeaning toward Patrick. You also claimed you would do some homework based on the discussion and now it appears that you're backing out of that. How disappointing.

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Just to be clear, I am fully in agreement with Steve Kirsch regarding the virology. However following their encounter I wrote to Mr. gunnels the following:

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 4:12 PM

Dear Patrick,

I want to compliment you on the powerful representation of your position you delivered vis a vis the existence of disease causing infectious particles in the interview with Steve Kirsch. You revealed him to be arrogant, insulting, gullible and of dubious honest scientific curiosity undermining his credibility significantly in my mind. Your manner is confident and calm. You never went for his throat when he would misspeak. Numerous times he made assertions seemingly “for the record” where you gently but firmly brought him back to your fundamental themes.

Needless to say, I see and admire your similar confident deference in your regular appearances with Jon (Patel Patriot) on the power hour with his fairly frequent wrong word choice, etc…. Your self erudition is at Mark Steyn levels!!

I couldn’t tolerate Dr. Kirsch to the end of the video, so if in fact, you solved all the worlds problems and I missed it, I apologize, but I still don’t understand where the disagreement is. Perhaps I’ll have to wait for Threadfest 2!!

If I may ask… I have seen electron micrographs of bacteriophages free floating and attaching and injecting nucleic acid information and replicating and being released in large numbers where the host bacteria dies. Have you seen those images? If so, where is the snag?

With Respect,

Bruce Hecht

•Reading Epic Threads paid sub (Twitch)

•Stephen Patrick Gunnels fan

•Devolution enthusiast

•American Patriot

•Pediatric Cardiologist (MD)

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https://youtu.be/yi0hwFDQTSQ As soon as you apply the scientific method in this rabbit hole you will find out the truth. It will be quick and decisive. The choice to know is yours

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